Joan Rivers

Joan Rivers, armed with unapologetic vulgarity, sharp timing, and an almost frightening work ethic, reveals the brutal realities of show business, going on to explain that if she needed money badly enough, she’d punch out her own teeth and do Poligrip commercials. She describes the insecurity that drives most comedians, and why to her, being called an “icon” feels far closer to a death sentence than a compliment. We laughed along with the comic as she reflected on screaming at a heckler enraged over a Helen Keller joke, the agony of Brazilian waxes as a form of torture, and the emotional damage required to spend a lifetime begging strangers to laugh at you.

TRANSCRIPT:

Tania Ketenjian:
Hello and welcome to Sight Unseen. My name is Tania Ketenjian and I'm your host. Sight Unseen is a half-hour weekly program presenting candid conversations with the artists and thinkers of our time. This week on the show, Joan Rivers, speaking about the documentary in which she stars titled Joan Rivers: A Piece of Work. Joan Rivers is quite a tour de force. Her career spans a wide range of genres, from stand-up comedian in clubs to national nighttime television, from films to plays, TV commercials, print commercials, endorsements, interviews with actors on the red carpet. She's an author, a director, a playwright, and now the central character in a documentary that has been hailed by critics as riveting, hilarious, unsettling, inspiring, and as many have noted, one of the best movies ever made about the brutal and unforgiving world of show business and what it takes to survive in it for decades. Filmmakers Ricky Stern and Annie Sundberg were not necessarily walking into familiar territory when they decide to make Joan Rivers a piece of work. Their previous films looked at much seemingly darker subjects Darfur and wrongful incarceration. So it's quite extraordinary that they were able to follow Joan Rivers for 14 months and from that material create a film that has been embraced by the critics. Following Joan Rivers is a feat in and of itself. That woman has energy, she has gusto, she's constantly thinking of jokes, she has millions— well, almost a million— seeking out gigs, and her enthusiasm and blunt realism that we see on stage is not distinct from her personal life or the real Joan.

That's exactly who we see in a piece of work: vulnerability. A life of fame, having been on one of the most widely watched TV programs, The Johnny Carson Show, to losing her husband to suicide. But most potently, at least for me, we see a woman with all her successes still trying to make it, still facing failure, and still at 77 getting back up to do it all over again. The film opens with Joan Rivers, quote, "putting her face on," a face that has been mocked for decades given all the plastic surgery she has gotten. Following this is a comedy routine at a stand-up club, one that is so hysterical, so crass and smart, breaking boundaries at every turn and not being self-conscious about that at all. I grew up with Joan Rivers as part of popular culture in America. But it was not until I saw Joan Rivers: A Piece of Work that I understood her impact on the world of comedy and performance, both as an actor and as a woman. Joan Rivers: A Piece of Work premiered at the San Francisco International Film Festival. In the film, we're taken through a year in the life of Joan Rivers, starting at a moment where her appointment book is virtually empty and she's clamoring for gigs through to her one-woman show in London, to her long-standing appearance on The Celebrity Apprentice, which then launched other parts of her once again thriving career. I spoke with Joan Rivers when she was here in San Francisco for her film. I shared that interview with fellow journalist Jonathan W. Wind from Movie Magazine International at KUSF Radio in San Francisco. The first part of Sight Unseen will include his interview. And later will be my conversation with Joan Rivers. Please stay tuned for that and more on this week's Sight Unseen.


Jonathan W. Wind:
This is Jonathan W. Wind, and I'm here interviewing Miss Joan Rivers. I'm going to talk about your movie. Opening June 11th in San Francisco. We all can't wait. I've already seen it. I'm going to send all my friends. I want to hear something funny that happened that we didn't see in the movie.


Joan Rivers:
I don't have a clue.


Jonathan W. Wind:
You don't have a clue?


Joan Rivers:
No. You remember they went around with me for 14 months, and so everything was recorded, and you don't remember what they didn't get.


Jonathan W. Wind:
Let me ask you a serious question.


Joan Rivers:
Okay.


Jonathan W. Wind:
Can I do that? Okay.


Joan Rivers:
Okay.


Jonathan W. Wind:
I really admired how you both skewered that gentleman in the audience and also kept the audience under your control in the movie, and I just wanted to know when you thought about it later did it hurt you in any way? Would have you handled it differently if it had?


Joan Rivers:
Well, first of all, let's explain because it's radio and they haven't seen it. I have a heckler in New York and I'm talking about I had been on a plane with noisy children for 5 and a half hours coming from England to New York and I said the only child I like to be close to now is Helen Keller.


Jonathan W. Wind:
And he jumped up and said, "That's not funny, my son—"


Joan Rivers:
My son's deaf and how dare you say that and I just I went for him. I went for him because we weren't even talking about deaf. We were talking about silence. And also, I'm a comedian, for God's sakes. And I didn't do a deaf joke. I did a Helen Keller thing, which is so out of the left field. And I really yelled and screamed at him and told him, you don't understand what comedy's about.


Jonathan W. Wind:
But how did you feel about it later?


Joan Rivers:
Terrible. Terrible, because you realize what pain the man must have been in. And you realize how angry and closed in he is. And I talk about it afterwards when I'm walking off stage. The first thing I say when I walk off is, "That was something." That poor man. And then I'm walking out, which they don't understand, it's half an hour later and I'm still talking about this poor guy. And I said, which is true, I hope he had a catharsis because maybe my yelling at him would have made him realize, calm down. It's, and your son is deaf, it's okay.


Jonathan W. Wind:
Joan, I'd like to know, What would you say to our world's leaders about how comedy could help bring about world peace?


Joan Rivers:
I think you're all idiots. I think you might as well get over the fact that there's— God is a made-up invention, or if you believe in him, he doesn't believe that he's right and nobody else is right. I find that you're all morons and calm down. I think women should rule the world. I think women have much more compassion and not jump. Men are natural warriors. I watched my grandson, 2-year-old boys, and they beat each other up and they hit each other and they punch each other. They're boys. And the little girls sit in the corner and they dress their Barbies.


Jonathan W. Wind:
I would like to ask, what has been your favorite project ever and your favorite person to work with ever?


Joan Rivers:
Very good question, and my favorite project is always my latest.


Jonathan W. Wind:
Good answer.


Joan Rivers:
So right now my favorite project in the whole world is this reality show I'm starting with Melissa called Mother Knows Best, where I'm going to move in with her in California, and that's going to be fun. I don't know, I've worked with so many amazing people.


Jonathan W. Wind:
Mel Brooks, really—


Joan Rivers:
—To work with. I've done a lot of voiceovers for him and Spaceballs, and then Spaceballs became in Germany a big hit. We did a series where I was the voices. He's just so smart. Neil Simon, you just gasp at his intelligence. Lucille Ball knew what she was doing. It's always the ones, the old warhorses that really know the business and you learn from them.


Jonathan W. Wind:
I have watched your show, How'd You Get So Rich?


Joan Rivers:
I love my show, How'd You Get So Rich?


Jonathan W. Wind:
I love your show, it's wonderful. But I'd like to know, what do you think of these nouveau riche folks and their taste levels?


Joan Rivers:
I love every single person that has been on that show, and this is the second year it's on, because they're self-made and they're doers and they're visionaries. We have guys that came to this country with 69 cents in their pocket. We have a man that took him away from his mother, they were so poor. Chicago educated him. I mean, we have people that came from nowhere. We have a man whose mother had no washing machine. He grew up with his mother hitting his clothes against the rocks to clean them. I have great respect for all these people. Taste? You gotta watch the show. Some have the most wonderful taste in the world. You go in the house and you go, "Ah! This is unbelievable!" And some you go, "Are you out of your mind?" We have one man who has an entire art collection which is pornography and he doesn't know it. And he's so proud of it and he shows you the whole thing and you go, "Don't you understand?" It's pornography, sweetheart. It's not art. But that's what makes the show, I think, such a hit, because people are so different on how they spend their money. It's fascinating.


Jonathan W. Wind:
Melissa called you damaged.


Joan Rivers:
Oh sure.


Jonathan W. Wind:
And how do you feel about that?


Joan Rivers:
All comedians are damaged. If we weren't damaged, we would be begging for approval, as Melissa says. You're going up there in front of people and you say, laugh. I love when she says that in the movie. Laugh at me. I don't care what I have to do to make you laugh at me, at me, with me. Who cares?


Jonathan W. Wind:
I like when you say, I'll wear a diaper. Yes, yes, I do.


Joan Rivers:
Yes, yes, I do. When they call up and I, I was at a point where I needed money and we're looking for commercials, and I don't care, I'll punch my teeth out and do Poligrip. Tell me what you want, I'll do it. Absolutely. Of course we're damaged. And I don't mean comedians as artists, but all artists are damaged. All actresses and actors are damaged. If they weren't damaged, they'd be very happy and they'd sit in the sun.


Jonathan W. Wind:
You know, I personally trained to be an actor, but I found out I wasn't any good.


Joan Rivers:
Then you're not damaged enough.


Jonathan W. Wind:
That's what happened to me. I would like to know, why does it anger you to be called an icon, a role model, or a leader for women in comedy. Now, I spoke to your producers this morning who told me you're just shy. But I would like to know what you think.


Joan Rivers:
No, I think that means you're over. And I ain't over.


Jonathan W. Wind:
I see.


Joan Rivers:
Wait till I'm dead, then you can call me anything you want. But right now, I'm in the trenches with everybody. So I'm not an icon, 'cause I am, as you were talking about, I am, you think relevant, you think you're relevant? Come watch my act. You think you're current? Come watch my act. So that's what gets me very angry. The minute they give you a title, they want to honor you, and that means you are finished.


Jonathan W. Wind:
Then you're out.


Joan Rivers:
Then you're out.


Jonathan W. Wind:
Okay, my last question is, well, congratulations on winning The Apprentice.


Joan Rivers
Yes, thank you, thank you.


Jonathan W. Wind:
And that exposure is what blossomed all these new projects for you.


Joan Rivers:
Actually, we had already shot How'd You Get So Rich? The first season. That doesn't diminish The Apprentice. That was 2 hours every Sunday night on NBC. That's nice, as my friends call it, face time.


Jonathan W. Wind:
Because you are just everywhere now. It's such a pleasure to see you on every channel just about, and I would like to thank you so much, Joan, for allowing me this privilege.


Joan Rivers:
Yeah, sure. I'm on every channel. I'm on WE, I'm on E!, I'm on TV Land, and I'm on something else that I've forgotten. I just think if they put all the checks together, together. It would be one nice check.


Jonathan W. Wind:
All right.


Joan Rivers:
But you get little checks from a lot of different places. That's okay, too.


Tania Ketenjian:
Well, actually, on that note, the film's extraordinary in the breadth of what we see and just how many changes you go through in your career in that time. Was there a distinctive change in your, say, happiness or satisfaction with yourself when The Apprentice happened and suddenly your book became filled with appointments?


Joan Rivers:
There's no change except you're not stupid. You know, this is a good moment. And if you don't know it's a good moment, then you're stupid. So I was very aware that The Apprentice kicked off a lot of things. And I was also smart enough to know, take them. You know, a lot of people don't get it. I was doing a film with Laverne & Shirley. What's her name? Cindy Williams. We had a movie ready to go and roll. At Paramount, Cindy Williams. And then Cindy was too tired to do it during their rest period, their, whatever they call it, their window. She said, I'll do it next year. Well, next year they didn't have good ratings and Paramount pulled the plug on the movie. And that taught me a very good lesson. There is no next year in this business. It's right now. David Brenner, who's an old comedian, once told me, don't save your best joke for the next shot. Put it on this shot because there may not be a next shot.


Tania Ketenjian:
And you're so great at exemplifying that ability to take on what comes in front of you. I mean, it's amazing. It's, it's, it's intoxicating. Yeah. And, and it's— and you kind of watch and you think to yourself, you know, God, there's so much more I could be doing. But I want to sort of talk about something that I thought a lot about during the film is just as a woman, how groundbreaking you were and the things that you talked about that no one was talking about.


Joan Rivers:
Yeah, but I didn't think of it then. I don't think of it now. My manager said to me, you shouldn't be talking about those things. And I knew, yes, I should be. You're totally 100% wrong. And left that manager shortly thereafter. But you never say, I'm going to say this, it's going to brown. You know, it's all about just, I want to talk about this. I want to talk about that. And now, I mean, it's getting so— The things that you can talk about are amazing now. You know, it's about terrorism and anal sex. But things that you couldn't talk about even 10 years ago.


Tania Ketenjian:
Yeah, but as a woman, I still think it is— as a woman comedian, I still think it's challenging to talk about those things. I still think you take risks.


Joan Rivers:
Well, I like to wake an audience up. I think when they come to see me, they should laugh. And I should also let them understand it's okay. We can talk about this now. And I love when women go, "Yeah, that's right. I feel that way." If you— we all know it hurts to have a bikini wax and it's easier to have a, you know, because I always say, never mind Guantanamo. I don't want to hear about waterboarding. Just give them a bikini wax, give them a Brazilian wax. They'll tell you things you never thought about.


Tania Ketenjian:
Well, what was great in that moment was also your, you know, your gestures and your voice at that time in the joke. It's— there's so much more to acting. It's a total performance.


Joan Rivers:
That comes from doing it, doing stand-up for years. When I first started, I couldn't touch the microphone. I was terrified I'd become— I'd be electrocuted. So I just stand in front of the mic. And now, of course, you know it, you get it, you know, you're all over that stage, which I love because it's a workout.


Tania Ketenjian:
So do you feel like you still learn new things every time you're up there?


Joan Rivers:
Oh, every day. Not only learning, I know I'm changing. I know if you look at me, and you wouldn't, and why bother, but I know for myself, if I look at what I'm doing now and I go back 5 years ago, it's very different. And it should be. You shouldn't say— you should never be the same. That's boring. That's why I look at the girl they put in the movie that's doing Ed Sullivan, has nothing to do with me. You look at the delivery and you go, oh God, I wouldn't say that like that now. It just evolves.


Tania Ketenjian:
So Jonathan just touched upon your relationship with your daughter. Just— he mentioned your daughter. And I'm really curious about that. I mean, it's such a— you've been really open about your closeness and the process that you've gone through to get there.


Joan Rivers:
Well, it's— I think we have a very complex relationship, much more than anyone sees. You know, people constantly come up to me and say, I see you and Melissa on the red carpet. I wish my mother and I were that close. Or I see you and Melissa. Wherever, Miss Universe, whatever you're doing. And, oh, what a wonderful relationship. And it is. I think I certainly trust her and I will kill for her. And I think she would do the same for me. We also walk on eggs with each other, as I think everyone does with their daughter or their mother. Very complex. But I think she's the one that the hand would go in the fire for. No question about it. And I'm very proud of what she's done in her life and how she's handled her life. And she just has a book called Lessons I've Learned from the Red Carpet. And it's an amazing book that she wrote. Wouldn't even show me till she got into galleys. All on her own. Very proud of her.


Tania Ketenjian:
Well, you know, she wanted to go into showbiz like you, and you said, you know, you really that you supported her but didn't encourage her. And still do. Like you said in the movie, which was so candid and so brilliant. But there's a point that you say that it's just— you can't resist it.


Joan Rivers:
I had no choice. I always say it's like a nun's calling. I opened up my eyes, and that's where I was going. I don't know if Melissa had a choice or not. But if you have a choice, do not go in this business. It is rejection, rejection, rejection. I don't care whose career. You can look at Meryl Streep, and I'm telling you, there was at least 6 roles she wanted she didn't get. Everybody, when you sit them down at a dinner party, will tell you something and you'll go, "Ah, I had no idea that whatever." Leonardo DiCaprio wanted that and didn't get it and actually called for it and they said, "You're wrong for the part." Everybody in this business It's a difficult business, but it's also the most wonderful business in the world. I always say, you walk on a movie set, you go into a television studio and they let you in, that's like being taken into the temple. You're suddenly a, uh, Vestal Virgin in Olympus, you know.


Tania Ketenjian:
It's great. When you were doing stuff for Johnny Carson, when you were on The Carson Show, were your parents really proud of you? Had they accepted that you had made this choice?


Joan Rivers:
My parents who never— I wrote a book called Getting Started, which talks about that. They didn't want me in it to the point of insanity. One of the reasons I did How'd You Get So Rich is because they were immigrant mentality. My grandmother came over with 11 children and cleaned fish and every child was a doctor or a lawyer or a schoolteacher. You know, it was one of those up-and-pushing families, very ethnically Jewish-oriented. I could have been an astro— my sister was the youngest female graduate of Columbia Law School at her time. I don't know if it's still continuing. And when I said I want to be an actress, no, no, no. If I had said I want to be a surgeon, come on. If I said I want to be an astronaut, absolutely. But an actress, no. And they did not talk to me for over a year. But they did live, thank you, God, to see me on the Carson Show and to see me successful. And I'm so pleased and happy about that. I once said to Elvis Presley, "What's the saddest thing that ever happened in your life?" And he said, "My mother didn't see me successful."


Tania Ketenjian:
You can't say that.


Joan Rivers:
No, I'm so— My both parents lived to see that I was okay. All you want for a child is that it's gonna be okay. And they lived to see I was gonna be okay.


Tania Ketenjian:
Those were the words of comedian, actress, director, author, performer, and personality Joan Rivers, speaking about Joan Rivers: A Piece of Work, the most recent documentary from filmmakers Ricky Stern and Annie Sundberg. A Piece of Work has been hailed by critics. Please take a look online to catch when it's coming to your neck of the woods. This interview was conducted in conjunction with fellow journalist Jonathan W. Wind. My name is Tania Ketenjian. This is Sight Unseen, a half-hour weekly program presenting candid conversations with the artists and thinkers of our time. You're listening to Resonance 104.4 FM, the UK's first radio art station.