Ingo Maurer

Ingo Maurer got married in San Francisco for $2.50, around the same time he nearly bankrupted himself trying to convince people that a light bulb suspended on barely visible wires could be beautiful. Maurer insists light is spiritually powerful, not in spite of but precisely because it “does not exist” as a tangible material. He spoke to us further about this, tracing his lifelong obsession with light back to childhood fishing trips with his father where they would watch reflections dance across lake water and trees. One of Maurer’s favorite artistic principles is finding beauty in supposedly ugly or ordinary things, and for him, creativity seems to depend on remaining slightly untethered. He repeatedly returns to the idea that breaking rules is essential to creativity, going on to speak about his days at early Burning Man as a time and place that “unlocks all rules.” What emerges is a designer far less interested in controlling the world than remaining open enough to be continuously moved by it.

TRANSCRIPT:

Ingo Maurer:
I like very much the spiritual quality of light. It has such— it gives us all such a deep dimension, actually, which goes really straight in our brain and our soul.


Tania Ketenjian:
That's the legendary Ingo Maurer, who's been bringing light and joy to the world for nearly 5 decades. And this is Design in Mind, a podcast series from Architektura, which has been a hub for international designers and brands in America for over 3 decades. My name is Tania Ketenjian, and Design in Mind candidly explores the lives and work of some of the most inspiring designers and design thinkers from around the world. Again, Ingo.


Ingo Maurer:
I like to wander through the world with open eyes and senses, and I somehow swallow it, and in some ways it comes out another way, or it's just the feeling I had. This is what takes me.


Tania Ketenjian:
Ingo Maurer is a profound inspiration to many. His passion for light began in the mid-'60s, and as we will hear in this interview, it was born from some of his earliest memories of fishing with his dad and seeing the reflection of light dance with the water. Over the past 50 years, Maurer has grown a startling career with exhibitions in museums all over the world, commissions from international clients and brands, and a company of nearly 80 people. Maurer himself is ever creative, still imagining and making things as he did when he first started many decades ago. In this interview, we speak of his initial love for light, the films and artists that inspire him, and his commitment to not making compromises. But first, his excitement about California. Stay tuned. I'm calling from San Francisco. I'm so—


Ingo Maurer:
Yeah, that's what I got married the first time for, for $2.50 at the Civic Center.


Tania Ketenjian:
Okay, that's great.


Ingo Maurer:
Yes!


Tania Ketenjian:
I knew that you had lived here, and I know that you're a romantic.


Ingo Maurer:
Aha! Okay. No, I'm not romantic, really, but maybe I have a different sensibility.


Tania Ketenjian:
That's right. You definitely have a different sensibility. No question about that. So I wanted to start off by saying that the way I had decided to research you yesterday and the last few days was not by looking at things on the internet or reading interviews, which is what I normally do. Yes, but by asking a well-known lighting designer and Andrew Fisher of Architectura, and we had an hour-long conversation yesterday, and they are completely in love with you and your work and think you're an absolute master. And I thought it was a great way to start because it was so, so personal.


Ingo Maurer:
Well, that's very nice of them, very nice, but yeah, you know, I just do my work and I have a lot of fun and passion for it.


Tania Ketenjian:
That's right. You certainly do. But when you first started, you were not into lighting. You were a graphic designer.


Ingo Maurer:
Correct.


Tania Ketenjian:
Which seems really different from lighting.


Ingo Maurer:
It seems to be very different. But with typography and letters, you know, you learn a lot about light.


Tania Ketenjian:
Can you tell me more about that? Why is that?


Ingo Maurer:
Well, you know, if you add certain letters, you know, A, B, C, and so what, you have a space in between. And that, for me, makes also light. Really.


Tania Ketenjian:
Interesting.


Ingo Maurer:
Yes. It took me a while till I got that… That I had this idea. Yeah, I was aware of—


Tania Ketenjian:
I think it's something that happens in our life that we do something early on and then we do something later that seems so different, and then we realize just how similar they are.


Ingo Maurer:
Correct. Yes.


Tania Ketenjian:
So when I say light, when I say the word light, what, what comes to mind? What are the first— what are the thoughts that come to mind? And then what are the feelings that come to mind?


Ingo Maurer:
Well, the first thing is with light coming into my mind, of course, it could be different things, but I like very much in my work also the spiritual quality of light. It has such— it gives us all such a deep dimension, actually, which goes really straight in our brain and our soul. And it's, yeah, I think I'm very lucky to work with a material which does not exist.


Tania Ketenjian:
It's interesting that you say it doesn't exist when I think of it existing everywhere.


Ingo Maurer:
Yes. Yeah. But let me have the illusion that it's a material which does not exist.


Tania Ketenjian:
Do you mean that it's not tangible, that you can't touch it?


Ingo Maurer:
Yes, exactly. I cannot take it in my hand and bend it and look at it from different side, but I do work with light, no?


Tania Ketenjian:
Very much so. You know, when you say the spiritual quality, it's so true. You know, whenever they talk about someone dying, they always talk about seeing this light.


Ingo Maurer:
Yes.


Tania Ketenjian:
When you see spiritual figures, they're surrounded by this ethereal light.


Ingo Maurer:
Yeah.


Tania Ketenjian:
Is that what attracted you initially, the spiritual aspect, or is that something you've come to as you've done it all these years?


Ingo Maurer:
Yeah, you know, when you are young and you walk a rainy forest and you have the lights coming in, it's really like going to a— how do you call it— a celebration church. But you are by yourself, and there's no crucifix or nothing like this, but it's the spirit which catches you inside.


Tania Ketenjian:
Beautifully said. Did you grow up with a spiritual or religious— in a religious family?


Ingo Maurer:
No, no, no, no, no, no. Also, I'm raised partly Catholic, but not really convincingly on this island I grew up. My father was already a Buddhist, an Eastern philosophy. But you know, on a small island, you just go to school and somehow you run with everybody to church. It's a small island. But the spirit really of the light is when my father was originally a fisherman and later become an inventor. But I was going on the lake fishing with him. And of course, the play of light on the waves and the play of lights in the trees next to the shore, no? Marvelous. I worked with that impression in a few projects, also one for Issey Miyake.


Tania Ketenjian:
Another very playful person, I imagine, Issey Miyake.


Ingo Maurer:
Yes, he's wonderful. He's really wonderful.


Tania Ketenjian:
You know, I cross the bridge, the Golden Gate Bridge, every day. I work in Sausalito.


Ingo Maurer:
How lucky you are.


Tania Ketenjian:
I am. I really do. And I think about the light all the time on the water and how beautiful it is on the coast.


Ingo Maurer:
And yes, but also the rolling clouds coming in into Sausalito. That inspires me all the time when I'm there.


Tania Ketenjian:
Yeah, that fog, that kind of— it is, it's a magical quality for sure. So your dad was a Buddhist. That seems very progressive for that time.


Ingo Maurer:
Oh yeah, in the '30s, yes.


Tania Ketenjian:
You know, you also said that he was an inventor, and you in many ways are an inventor as well. At least that's how I see you.


Ingo Maurer:
Yes.


Tania Ketenjian:
So do you feel like he inspired you in that way?


Ingo Maurer:
There's some kind of— was a very spiritual connection between us. Also, and this is terrible to say, when I was 15 and he died, I somehow was relieved because he was very strict, very strict. But of course, you think about your father, of your parents, of what they have given you. And he has given me a lot. And he has given me discipline in a good sense and this spiritual kind of influence.


Tania Ketenjian:
I don't think it's terrible to say. I think it's very difficult to live with someone that's very strict, especially if you're a creative thinker.


Ingo Maurer:
Ja, well, I wasn't aware that I was really a creative thinker at that time. I did do things, playing things. I was in a way creative, but you are not conscious of it. And that's the most intense part in your life.


Tania Ketenjian:
When something so strong is there but you don't know.


Ingo Maurer:
Yes, yes.


Tania Ketenjian:
When did you— when do you remember when you started realizing that you were?


Ingo Maurer:
Well, when I was studying typography, of course, then it started to, it started a desire to make more than just typography. Yeah, it grew. It grew very much, no? Because later on, I went to a graphic academy here in Munich. And I had the urge of creating all the time, up to this very date.


Tania Ketenjian:
Yeah, I love that. I love that you still have that urge. I mean, I think one of the things we spoke about yesterday with Peter and Andrew is that it's extraordinary how you just continue to create. Like there's this insatiable or, you know, constant desire to make something and design something, create something. You also mentioned early on that you got married here in San Francisco.


Ingo Maurer:
Yes, it was in 1962.


Tania Ketenjian:
Where was your wife from?


Ingo Maurer:
She was also from Germany. We lived there for 2 and a half years just together, no? And actually, we didn't want to get married at that time. We just thought that marriage is a nuisance. But then we want to go back and live in England. That was a compromise for me. And— but we wanted to have a cabin of our own on the France. So, we had to marry very, very quickly because they wouldn't take us without the marriage license.


Tania Ketenjian:
And did all of that happen? Did you move to England and buy the cabin in France?


Ingo Maurer:
Uhh. It's— yeah, we got the cabin and we arrived in London, which we choose, for me, as a joyful compromise. But then we expecting our first child, and England at that time was very strict about immigration and working permit, etc., all this. So it didn't happen. And the first daughter was about to arrive, so we went back to Germany to her parents.


Tania Ketenjian:
Oh, and your first child was a daughter?


Ingo Maurer:
Yes, Sarah. Yeah. Yeah, she's mad at me that she isn't born in America because she loves California.


Tania Ketenjian:
Yeah.


Ingo Maurer:
And she goes 3 or 4 times a year, she goes there.


Tania Ketenjian:
No way. 3 or 4? Wow, she really loves it.


Ingo Maurer:
Yeah, but she has a kind of a spiritual thing somewhere on the mountain, etc. I don't know exactly what.


Tania Ketenjian:
Well, it's a beautiful place. There's no question.


Ingo Maurer:
Yes.


Tania Ketenjian:
But Germany is beautiful, too. So you were married for how many years?


Ingo Maurer:
17. And then my wife couldn't bear my success. She felt like she lives in my shadow. And I didn't want to do that. I was really fighting for 4 years that the breakup will not be. But it happened. Then I was on the market for a while, which was— it was a new experience because emancipation has done a lot of things. Fantastic, beautiful. We men have never been really aware of how lucky we are that this emancipation came upon us. And also cleaned our brain concerning a connection with a woman.


Tania Ketenjian:
So you were on the mar— did you meet someone else? Did you get remarried?


Ingo Maurer:
Yes, I did, in Las Vegas.


Tania Ketenjian:
No!


Ingo Maurer:
We were living together for 21 years. And I said, oh, let's celebrate your 50th birthday. We go to San Francisco, to Las Vegas. So she did not know that I had the idea to marry her there. We arrived and we had just a few secret friends there and it was a very, very nice wedding. Having a big steak. Anyway, we enjoyed, we enjoyed. And unfortunately she died 3 years ago of pancreas cancer.


Tania Ketenjian:
I'm really sorry to hear that. I knew that your wife had passed away. I'm very sorry.


Ingo Maurer:
I really miss her a lot because she, and I have to say this very clear, she helped to build up what I did. And she was very warm, soul with beautiful language. And she let me go up like a kite in the— like a kite going up, up, up. And when she felt I'm too far away, she gave a little— how do you say— you pull the line a little bit. So I knew, oh, maybe I should go not so far. So that was the deal between us.


Tania Ketenjian:
It's a beautiful way of saying it. It's a beautiful way of saying it. I'm really pleased that she supported your growth.


Ingo Maurer:
No, we had a very good relation, a very, very good relation. And I mean, I have a company now with 70 people and I'm 85 and I go on working, first of all, of the wonderful jobs which come along, these challenges. And then, of course, I have to support all my employees, which are for me for a long, long time. It's like a big family.


Tania Ketenjian:
That's so great. That's so great.


Ingo Maurer:
Yeah.


Tania Ketenjian:
Yeah, I mean, what I was saying is that it can be really difficult when someone you're close with is intimidated by your success. And it can be the opposite effect of when someone celebrates your success. It can make you go so much further.


Ingo Maurer:
I understood her very well. And I tried her because she was creative. I tried to have that she has an office by herself and it's in her name. And uh… But she didn't catch this. So yeah, anyway, now we're living wall to wall with my first wife and we say hello and wonderful, how are you? Can I help you, etc.?


Tania Ketenjian:
No way. You live next door, like essentially next door to each other? Yes, yes, yes.


Tania Ketenjian:
What a—


Ingo Maurer:
It was a big place and it wasn't probably the best decision because it was difficult with the kids. It was always something, "Ah, they're coming to you and I'm coming to you." And so it was not a togetherness of raising the kids. It was her kids.


Tania Ketenjian:
That's how it felt. That's how it felt to you.


Ingo Maurer:
Yeah.


Tania Ketenjian:
So how many children do you have?


Ingo Maurer:
I have 2 daughters and 4 grandchildren, 2 girls and 2 boys.


Tania Ketenjian:
And did your 2 daughters become creative like you?


Ingo Maurer:
Yes, they have this. And my eldest daughter and I, One daughter is working with me since, well, 15 years. And the other daughter, which is often in California, she has a very good eye, very creative and good ideas. And she works, unfortunately, only part with me.


Tania Ketenjian:
But it's how nice that your daughter, both of them work with you though in some way.


Ingo Maurer:
Yes, I feel lucky.


Tania Ketenjian:
Yeah, and it's really special. One of the things that came up yesterday is that, you know, unlike many, you know, many designers, you really have control, creative control, I think in many ways. You really have this autonomy over what you can make, and there's a lot of freedom there. Do you, does that sound right? And how do you, why is that?


Ingo Maurer:
Well, to be free is really, you have to, you go to the limits, no, to try. And when I come up with a new idea and I talk to my wonderful team I work with, oh, they say, Ingo, come on, you cannot do that. And no, no, this is, and then this is this technical kind of thing. And then I have a Californian working with me since many years and said, Ingo, it's a great idea. Do it, do it, do it. Don't listen to the others. So I have support because, uh, Isagani is his name, and, uh, he is more free than all my German, uh, colleagues, unfortunately.


Tania Ketenjian:
It's really interesting.


Ingo Maurer:
So this is— it shows that we still in Europe, we live still with behind lots of fences. And that's what I learned in America and that what intrigued me in America, that you don't feel the fences. It was a big relief for me as a young man.


Tania Ketenjian:
So why didn't you stay?


Ingo Maurer:
Because what the woman wants God.


Tania Ketenjian:
But you would have stayed, maybe?


Ingo Maurer:
I would have liked to stay. I would have liked to stay, and I would have tried to make it out there. It's fascinating, no? I mean, San Francisco was, of course, very different at that time. Now there's much more green, etc., all this, but the Russian River, canoeing down. Fantastic. Beautiful.


Tania Ketenjian:
Have you been to Lake Tahoe?


Ingo Maurer:
Yes, of course. Yes, yes, yes. I've been 4 times to Burning Man.


Tania Ketenjian:
That's right. I know you do love Burning Man. That's right.


Ingo Maurer:
Yeah, but it sounds— I just had a guy who works with me coming back, and he said he spoke about 70,000 people. When I was there the first time, it was just around 30. And then it grew, no? And so by the end, I being the last time there, it was just slightly above 40,000.


Tania Ketenjian:
Wow. So you were at the very early Burning Mans, the very early ones.


Ingo Maurer:
Yeah, not the earliest, unfortunately, not on Baker Beach. I would have liked to participate there.


Tania Ketenjian:
What is it about Burning Man that you— what do you like about Burning Man?


Ingo Maurer:
Burning Man— unlocks all rules, if you understand what I mean. I think breaking the rules and taking on the— how do you say— the challenge, the risk, is very, very important. It's still for me in all levels of life.


Tania Ketenjian:
Yeah, I mean, I would argue that that's what you do with your work.


Ingo Maurer:
Yes, yes, I try. But not on intention. It's just a feel. You cannot construct something breaking this. It has to— with me, it comes really from the feeling. That's where it starts.


Tania Ketenjian:
So what happens? Let's— I mean, I know it's— I'm not a big fan of the question about process, but I am curious. What happens? A feeling comes, and what do you do?


Ingo Maurer:
Well, I have a few things in my collection, and I have been going around for about 30 years, no? And then you think of it once in a while and say, "Oh, maybe it's the right moment. I have to get it out of my system." And then I start to realize it, sometimes very much against my, the will of my, no, attitude of my team. But I believe very much in convincing. I believe very much in seducing. Yeah. And being very, very much aware of very kind of sensible, how do you say, perceptions. Perception is a very, very strong impact on my work. You know, for instance, I told you I lived on the sea, on the lake with my father, and you see the wind and you see the light dancing on the waves and you see the poplar trees in the wind and they have a a lighter side and a darker side and things like this. And that has somehow been really— it impressed me so much, and I think of it in a very gentle way. And from that idea, I did this one piece for Issey Miyake, which is now— he gave up his shop in London, and it's now in the Design Museum in London.


Tania Ketenjian:
Mm. Yeah, I love that piece. It's beautiful. It's interesting to me that, given that the sea is so inspiring to you, or—


Ingo Maurer:
Yeah.


Tania Ketenjian:
—that you don't live by the sea anymore.


Ingo Maurer:
That's true. But I live, when I have time enough, among olive trees in Italy. And there, when the wind goes, the olive trees make a nice sound, make a nice light. So I dream there. And the sea is not so far away. I've been sailing with Italian— with Sicilian friends many, many years in a row. And I like very much the sea, but I decided for a countryside.


Tania Ketenjian:
Sounds so lovely. I love that. I do. Sailing is so freeing. So your team, if you come up with an idea and your team says, oh, that's crazy, that's impossible, aside from the American who thinks more open-mindedly, you don't listen to that. You slowly convince them.


Ingo Maurer:
Yeah, you know, of course, some doubts coming and thinking, but if I think the idea is good and I can convince and I'm convinced, I do it. And I invest sometimes a lot of time, a lot of money also, but in the end, I bring it to the market, and there it's decided whether it's a success or not. As I said before, risk on all levels of life is important.


Tania Ketenjian:
That's right. Without risk, how are you going to discover something new? Yeah, in fact, this specifically, this Issey Miyake piece, really does remind me of the of the sea, of the water.


Ingo Maurer:
Well, another thing is the Miyake piece is, you know, it was supposed to do light, but I made the leaves, the silver leaves moving by ventilators inside the space of the piece. It was like a zeppelin in a way. And this way it reflected differently, and we shoot the light on those leaves and it reflected down to the customers. So you didn't have a very monotonous light when you tried something on.


Tania Ketenjian:
So it's really like a performance.


Ingo Maurer:
Oh, I don't want to go so far, but it's a kind of sensitive thinking of the people who buy. It's not a dead light, but it's changing while you try on his beautiful things, no?


Tania Ketenjian:
It's lovely. I love that. But, you know, it is— the reason I say it's an installation is because one of the things that we discussed yesterday with Peter and Andrew was how, um, you know, your work, there's no— it's not static in any way. It's just like you're saying that there's this, there's this movement to it, there's a— and there's a narrative to it. There's a strong feeling that there's a story there.


Ingo Maurer:
Well, I'm not the person who analyzes. I just go on what I feel so far. And I try to make no compromises.


Tania Ketenjian:
I love that bit, making no compromises.


Ingo Maurer:
Oh, little, let's say, little compromises.


Tania Ketenjian:
I mean, I think what's the challenge of that is that you actually have to make it work. You have to make an idea work. You know, in a— like, actually, in a scientific— I can't say, but in an engineering way.


Ingo Maurer:
Yes.


Tania Ketenjian:
And you're able to do that. That's kind of the extraordinary thing. It's not just like you're coming up with the ideas, but you're able to actually make it work, to manifest the idea.


Ingo Maurer:
Yeah, but, you know, I work— I'm fascinated by lightness, no? Not heavy, but lightness, and which is sometimes difficult to succeed in Germany because normally we are more heavy and more rational and things like this. So I tried— I've never tried to run away from that, but as I said before, I do what I feel. But I want to add, I'm very fascinated by the new technique and lightness, I have to explain, is of course being done with the new lighting sources, like the YaYaHo, for instance, which is now more than 20, 25 years. That was an inspiration I had in Haiti. Haiti at New Year's Eve, coming out with friends of what they call in French, boîte de nègre, no? And then you find this huge giant bulb over a little piazza, but not with a socket, but just sorted on it, no? And that was 500 watts. And it was such a poetic impression that I had, we have to do it with a safe, in a very safe way. I came back to New York to my place and I started immediately to work on it. But it took 4 years until we have been, everything is accomplished.


Tania Ketenjian:
Well, first of all, I love that story. I love that it happened in Haiti. What were you doing in Haiti?


Ingo Maurer:
Well, being with friends for New Year's Eve.


Tania Ketenjian:
Amazing choice to go to Haiti.


Ingo Maurer:
Well, that's how many years ago? This is more than 25 years ago.


Tania Ketenjian:
Yeah. And so much has happened there. And the other thing that I like about this story is that even though it took 4 years, you stuck with it and you knew that you— well, you didn't compromise.


Ingo Maurer:
I was bankrupt, more or less. I went to the bank and showed them, please give me more money, and showed them what I'm about to finish. And then the director said, oh, do you think you can sell these stupid things? Why don't you make something rustic? Well, I didn't get the loan. I went back and we somehow survived.


Tania Ketenjian:
It's incredible. And then what happened? The piece came out and what happened?


Ingo Maurer:
Well, it was immediately a success. Immediately. The people loved it, the lightness, the new technique and new aesthetics. Revolutionary. This was, well, revolution. Yes, in a way it was a revolution, but it's a strong word, revolution. It is.


Tania Ketenjian:
Revolutionary.


Ingo Maurer:
This was, well, revolution. Yes, in a way it was a revolution, but it's a strong word, revolution.

Tania Ketenjian:
It is. It is. But so you really, I mean, even though you had no money, you didn't give up?


Ingo Maurer:
No, I didn't give up. No, no. I didn't give up. I was so convinced.


Tania Ketenjian:
It's great. It's great. And it's great that it had such great success.


Ingo Maurer:
Mhm. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah. I, in general, I would say that I, I'm a human being, or I'm trying to be a human being. I feel blessed, really blessed.


Tania Ketenjian:
Have you always felt that way?


Ingo Maurer:
Yes, I did. I did. This might be something which I got from my father. But yeah, I've been always like that.


Tania Ketenjian:
Yeah, because I think it's a feeling— blessed is, um, it's not about your circumstances, it's about the way in which you perceive your circumstances. I mean, part of it is your circumstance, of course, but you can have the same circumstances and not feel blessed. But, um, you know, your character, just like you were saying earlier, is of lightness. And that's your character. That's like your psychological character. It's something that's light, that doesn't want heavy things.


Ingo Maurer:
So you analyze me. I don't love it, being analyzed. Because I tell you why.


Tania Ketenjian:
Tell me why.


Ingo Maurer:
Once you are analyzed, You are not free anymore. You stand beside yourself and watch what you are doing. And I enjoy very much the kind of subconsciousness to work.


Tania Ketenjian:
To come through.


Ingo Maurer:
To a result, yes. You know, I don't want to be saying, okay, I was analyzed or I'm analyzed and I do things like this or things like this. It becomes too— it goes into your brain and soul, and you're not free anymore.


Tania Ketenjian:
I know exactly what you mean, and that's very true, yeah.


Ingo Maurer:
No, this is— I think it's, of course, analyzing is in many cases very helpful. But once you have done it, you are not a virgin anymore.


Tania Ketenjian:
That's true. It can be very limiting. I mean, once labels are put upon you. I mean, that's, I think, probably one of the hard things about being well-known is that people so badly want to understand and categorize so that maybe they can be that way, or maybe they can be inspired in that way.


Ingo Maurer:
Yeah, that's very difficult anyway because the people around the globe don't know where to put me. Am I Italian or am I an English guy? Or they always would like to file me into something, and I don't like to be filed.


Tania Ketenjian:
Well, I was gonna— I didn't think about it culturally, but that's true. I, I, that there's that. I thought maybe, is he a designer? Are you an artist? Are you an inventor? Are you an engineer? Are you all of those things?


Ingo Maurer:
When you say so, yes.


Tania Ketenjian:
When you gather your team, I mean, is it very collaborative?


Ingo Maurer:
Yes, yes, yes. Without this great team, I wouldn't be there where I am. This is absolutely right. I had really great, great, wonderful people who worked with me for a long time, which is very good. And on the other hand, it could be sort of a fence, you know. And I always speak with my team that we would have to stand upside down and think new again in a different way and not in the sort of common way of thinking. It's very important.


Tania Ketenjian:
Are they able to do that?


Ingo Maurer:
Uh, but some yes, and some just got the spirit of what I want only a while. Later, no? And then they come and say, oh, Ingo, I did not know that your thoughts— I didn't understand you at the beginning.


Tania Ketenjian:
But now they do, now they understand.


Ingo Maurer:
Inshallah.


Tania Ketenjian:
That's right, inshallah. You know, it's such a hard thing, I think, to say to yourself, okay, I'm going to even as a creative, to say to yourself, I'm going to think differently. I'm going to force myself or push myself to think differently. For you, I mean, it comes naturally. But for someone that— for whom it might not come naturally, it's such a challenge.


Ingo Maurer:
It can be a pain for them. Yes. It's anyway to dive in another way of thinking. Can be very strenuous.


Tania Ketenjian:
What do you feel— what are times where you feel most satisfied, when you feel most— I don't know, and happy isn't the right word, but content?


Ingo Maurer:
I am very content with people. I love human beings. I really love when we are in a good group of people. And we enjoy every moment of what we are doing. This is unconsciously doing. And that's of course a work which has to be— I have to do every day to make the people aware of the things, or they make me aware of it. It's not— yeah, sometimes they make me aware of things. And then I have to say I agree or I don't agree. But it enriches my life, you know. For instance, I come up with a new idea and I think, with whom of the 14 people should I realize this idea? So I pick a person who I think is would fit to this work. I explained it with little drawings or little, little model, etc. And then he starts, and I pass by many times, and I see that he goes into completely wrong direction. And I let him. Of course, that costs money and time, no? But it gives me also— it gives the chance that he really gets involved, and it gives me a chance that there might be some adding to it which would make the things really, let's say, more round. You understand what I mean?


Tania Ketenjian:
I understand exactly what you mean. Yeah. I mean, and what it makes me think of is, you know, because you were saying, and sometimes I might— they might do something wrong and it— and that, that mistake costs money, but you learn something from it. Um, do you— is— I mean, failure is such a strong word, but do you, do you believe that there's many failures between the idea and what's come to what what comes to market?


Ingo Maurer:
Uh, it happened, uh, it happened twice. I thought I should go a little bit more into design, you know, and, uh, I, um, and I failed. I really failed. Also, it was a nice little, uh, thing, a nice wonderful little light, uh, inspired by a tennis ball and the reflector, etc. This is— it was a failure. Ever since, I try to stay away from design. I mean, the kind of designy design. You understand what I mean?


Tania Ketenjian:
I do, but I want to hear you— I get what you mean, but I want to hear more about that a little bit. Like, when you say that design, I love the way you said it.


Ingo Maurer:
It's not— design is not my enemy, but I think there's beautiful, fantastic design. If you take Charles Eames, I mean, this was absolutely great, great design. But nowadays, design has become most of all a kind of superficial and very market-oriented. And this, I cannot cope with it very well.


Tania Ketenjian:
Well, it's interesting that you raise Eames because there were a couple of— we talked about how—


Ingo Maurer:
I met him. I had lunch with him in Milano. Wonderful.


Tania Ketenjian:
How was it?


Ingo Maurer:
Wonderful. I mean, this man was really a soul of a human being. Really, I felt very, very lucky. And then some of our agents in France gave him the bulb, the— my first lamp. And then he wrote me a letter and he congratulated me. And that was of course fantastic for me to have been such words as he used from a great human being like he was.


Tania Ketenjian:
I'm so glad that he inspired you in that way. Interestingly, yesterday it was precisely Eames that they were talking about in comparison to you. Do you feel similar?


Ingo Maurer:
Oh, that would be really, um— how do you say the right word now? It doesn't come, the right word, but I mean, to compare what I do and he did. I mean, he, he's just incredible. He was just incredible. Also his wife. It had this very Californian influence on me in San Francisco when the showroom was there. And yeah, it was good. It was good, but I feel different. I've— yeah. And people can put me as a designer or an artist or whatever they want, as long as I survive with what I do.


Tania Ketenjian:
It's exactly what I thought you were going to say. But the thing also about you and Eames is that you also had a woman that supported you. And that believed in you. And that's similar to him.


Ingo Maurer:
Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. Woman behind a man is very, very important.


Tania Ketenjian:
It is. It's important to have that kind of support and that, and that love.


Ingo Maurer:
You know, we do a lot of one-of-a-kind things. For special clients. I can try many things because people pay for it, no? But I haven't— you know, you really can go wild if the chemistry between you and the clients is working. That's the first thing— the chemistry has to work with the other side. It's not just about making money, but it's about the human exchange.


Tania Ketenjian:
And normally, do you feel that chemistry?


Ingo Maurer:
Yes, very much so. And I declined to do a few things because I didn't like the person at all.


Tania Ketenjian:
And the chemistry just wasn't there.


Ingo Maurer:
And I told them frankly, listen, the chemistry doesn't work between us. So no. And then they were shocked, etc. Sometimes they understand. And yeah, we do quite a bit of one-of-a-kind things for, in the US. And, you know, I have this very, very big project in Brazil. It's a broken egg which is going to be in a park in Inhotim, it's called, near Belo Horizonte. And the egg is 25 meters long and 50 meters high. And you enter the eye. It has a crack. I think the idea is that the beauty of an egg is so perfect, that once it has a crack, you are more aware of the beauty.


Tania Ketenjian:
Yeah, like that Leonard Cohen song about how, you know, like, I don't remember exactly the line, but when you see a crack, that's when the light comes in. That cracks actually.


Ingo Maurer:
Ah, yeah, I did not know that, but it sounds really good.


Tania Ketenjian:
Yeah, that it's kind of wabi-sabi a little bit too, the things that are—


Ingo Maurer:
Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes.


Tania Ketenjian:
The seeming imperfections actually highlight the beauty.


Ingo Maurer:
See also beauty in what people call ugly or not perfect. To see beauty in something very ordinary. For instance, I took a tea strainer, you know, these ones, an ordinary object. And turned it into a beautiful lamp which makes light.


Tania Ketenjian:
You know, making the ordinary extraordinary. I always love that line. Because there are so many things in it. Well, you know, we pass by so much that seems so— that we just ignore. But if we gave it a closer look or highlighted it in some way, we would see just how magical it is. Yes.


Ingo Maurer:
I had also a period, and I might go back to it. I made a big 5-meter-50-long mural, I would say, but all of sponges, only sponges. And it's in there, it's hanging in the Coribic, but really fascinating, really nice. And so I stand with a woman who helps me and we dye the sponges in the washing machine and doing all these things. And then I place it in order how I see it. It's a biotope. I did two greens, and I did one kind of Yves Klein blue.


Tania Ketenjian:
Mm, Yves Klein blue, yes. I was in front of Yves Klein blue, one of his blue paintings. At the MOMA. And yeah, it's so beautiful.


Ingo Maurer:
Yeah, I did a job for somebody who lives on 740 Park Avenue, and he has that big 5-meter-long Yves Klein blue, which he lent to the Metropolitan. But then they brought it over with a crane.


Tania Ketenjian:
Amazing. Wow. What a— that must have been a fun— how was that project?


Ingo Maurer:
It's incredible. It was fantastic. And to be witness there. Yeah.


Tania Ketenjian:
Yeah, I'm sure. And you got to do a light piece for him?


Ingo Maurer:
Yes, yes, yes. I did a couple of things for him.


Tania Ketenjian:
Just for his home?


Ingo Maurer:
For his home, yes. Wow. And I did one, you know, my Porca Miseria? You know, the broken dishes?


Tania Ketenjian:
Yes, yes.


Ingo Maurer:
Yeah. I did for him something rather small, but very, very erotic. And it hangs in the same place. I wish I didn't sell it. But we need money to live on and to pay the bills.


Tania Ketenjian:
Interesting. Yeah. Well, first of all, what's incredible about that is someone can call you and say, "Please come and make me something original. Make me something that nobody else has." And you said it's erotic, so it's sexual.


Ingo Maurer:
Yes. I used porcelain figures, and I arranged them partly broken, partly not, and partly you see everything of the naked people. It's really very nice. Very, very nice. I don't even have a photograph of it.


Tania Ketenjian:
Wow. And you wouldn't be able to recreate it?


Ingo Maurer:
Uh, very, very difficult. Very difficult. You know, each piece that we're doing here— we just finished one— uh, it takes about 10 days with 4 people as assistants to do that. And, uh, I, uh, I like to do it because it's like drawing on the spot. And changing the thing and searching for the right piece of porcelain. No, I like that work very much. And there I have the assistance of my daughter, Sarah.


Tania Ketenjian:
Oh, that's great. Wow. So she was witness to that.


Ingo Maurer:
Yeah. There's a wonderful piece hanging in in Cambridge for a client. He came to me and he would like to— wanted to have something special, and I made it for him. It's a huge one, and it's really hanging over dining. And another piece I would like to have back.


Tania Ketenjian:
Well, I, I'm just, I'm just amazed by this notion that someone can call and say, I'd like Ingo Maurer to make— I'd like you to make me a piece just for me. I mean, it's kind of a, what a gift to be able to— what a thing to have. I mean, that's incredible. And also, you know, the reason I asked, could you recreate it, is because I just, I can't imagine that you could. Because even if you could practically recreate it, let's say you knew the parts and this and that, there's a feeling and an emotion that comes when you're making something that— how can you recreate that? It's like, you know, I write poetry. How could I write that same poem again in the same feeling with the same words without looking at it again. It'd be so hard to recreate that moment of emotion, at least for me.


Ingo Maurer:
But no, but this is the exciting part of the work of doing a porca miseria, because you stand and you work and it's hard work and It's not just playing around, but as the things grow in front of you, ideas come and sensibility and perception is very, very— we are aware of. And that makes the joy of doing something like that.


Tania Ketenjian:
You know, talking about poetry. There's, you know—


Ingo Maurer:
Talking about what?


Tania Ketenjian:
Poetry


Ingo Maurer:
Yeah, poetry. Yes.


Tania Ketenjian:
Your pieces, not all of them, but most of them have, you know, these great names to them. You know, it's not like Lamp— well, some of them are Lamp One, Lamp Two, but, you know, you've thought very much about that aspect of it as well. Why? What's— why is the language important?


Ingo Maurer:
I think a name for— a name is important. A name for a product is very important. And a name also, what you feel like, is important. So, yeah, I think name is— names are super important.


Tania Ketenjian:
Do you usually know what the name is, or do you say, oh, maybe this or maybe that, or you play for a while to figure it out?


Ingo Maurer:
Well, sometimes the name is most— after a day or two days, I'm quite sure what I would like to call it. Yeah, just today at my studio, somebody we work with, and he presented an idea, and a very nice idea, which we are perfect for realizing it. And I had immediately an idea of the name, but I don't know whether I keep it. So I let it grow for a couple of days, and then we see.


Tania Ketenjian:
This is going to sound like a totally random question, but So Sarah, you named Sarah, obviously. Yes. Um, what did her name come to you right away?


Ingo Maurer:
Uh, Sarah?


Tania Ketenjian:
Yeah.


Ingo Maurer:
Well, it's my daughter.


Tania Ketenjian:
I know, but did you, when she was born, did you know that that was going to be her name?


Ingo Maurer:
Uh, no, actually not, because my wife at that time, she was convinced that it's going to be a a boy. And so we talked all the time about Ivan, you know. And then we had Sarah. Yeah.


Tania Ketenjian:
So changing gears, film. Um, I don't know why this came up, but I, I was curious if film inspires you, if you have a love for film. Do you feel inspired by movies?


Ingo Maurer:
Yes. I go too seldom to the movie, but of course, it's— watching the movie, it creates a mood. An emotion in myself, and that is this power I get from the film that helps me to carry on. And this is the same thing for my big heroes, like Calder is one of my big heroes, no? And of course, all the others, like Brancusi, and also in design, like Castiglioni and Maristetti, all this. I was lucky to be friends with them, really friends. I didn't copy them, but they were convincing individuals, and that gave me a lot of power.


Tania Ketenjian:
I'm curious, who are your other heroes when you think about that? Well, Eames, I would imagine.


Ingo Maurer:
Yeah, Eames, of course, is really number one. Number one hero is Eames, but it's also true because I had twice wonderful lunch, one in Milano and one in Paris, and that always gave me a big lift.


Tania Ketenjian:
Yes, I mean, having that, having had that connection.


Ingo Maurer:
I, I, I, yeah.


Tania Ketenjian:
And who else are your heroes?


Ingo Maurer:
Oh God, I have to scratch my almost not existing brain.


Tania Ketenjian:
You know, well, you said a lot actually. Castiglione and Magistretti are really great ones. I love—


Ingo Maurer:
Yes, yes. And of course , it's, I mean, I like Cy Twombly, he's a great, wonderful person. Of course, I like the people of the pop era. That's right. And I love Rauschenberg a lot. There was a wonderful exhibition in the MOMA when I was there last. Yeah, it was a great exhibition. Very, very good. And these were also the moments— this was a moment, and it fits precisely how— what America did to me, to make me free. And their art also helped me to become more free.


Tania Ketenjian:
You mean these artists, Rauschenberg, Cy Twombly?


Ingo Maurer:
Yes, Rauschenberg, yes. Oldenburg, and of course, ah, Madonna.


Tania Ketenjian:
One of the things I love about Cy Twombly that I learned recently, because I just did this whole podcast series on art, or on art that people really have difficulty with, and Cy Twombly and Robert Rauschenberg, those are all artists, Andy Warhol, they were all artists that we were speaking about that people people find difficult and don't understand. And, um, one of the things I loved about Cy Twombly was that he was a master craftsman. He was incredible at drawing. And yet he let— when you look at his work, he just let all of that go, you know, and just, you know, this true freedom of breaking away from rules, you know, like you were talking about with Burning Man.

Ingo Maurer:
Breaking the rules, but it looks —like casual, and it is not casual. That's what I really, really like about his work, very much. And what I like in works of others is if they are not dictating, that they leave a lot of space for your own imagination. That's for me most important in art.


Tania Ketenjian:
Yeah, absolutely. That it does. So, so it doesn't, you know, so the classics where you see exactly what the story is, um, it doesn't leave, leave too much for the imagination. No, I do, I do love that. I really do. I, and, um, I think that's why people find it challenging though. Because they want, you know, they do want to be told what to think or what to see, what they're looking at. But when you're looking at, say, abstract art, you have to make those connections yourself, and that can be hard.


Ingo Maurer:
Yeah, but, you know, then you have to put a kind of instruction how you should think, or you have the description what he thought or she thought. And I like to wander through the world with open eyes and senses, and I somehow swallow it, and in some ways it comes out another way, or it's just the feeling I had. No, no. Like Brancusi is, is of course one of my top, top heroes. I like Calder because his art was unpretentious and yet very, very sensible. And these qualities of an artist, this is what takes me. It's not just admiration, but it convinces me of the human being behind it.


Tania Ketenjian:
It's beautifully said. Oh, well, I really enjoyed speaking with you.


Ingo Maurer:
Me too. Thank you very much.


Tania Ketenjian:
That was Ingo Maurer, legendary world-renowned lighting designer and is an inspiration to so many today. On the next Design in Mind, we'll be in conversation with architects and designers Neri&Hu, speaking about what it is to develop a global business while raising a family and traveling the world. Design in Mind is a podcast series from Architektura. Based in San Francisco, Architektura curates the best design from around the world and makes it accessible through its retail spaces, live events, and this podcast. Design in Mind is Architektura's way of honoring the life and work of some of the best designers today and celebrating the magic and beauty of design and design thinking. Design in Mind is produced for Architektura by Sound Made Public. I'm your host, Tania Ketenjian, and our associate producer is Zeneva Schindler. To hear more, please visit arcsf.com or go to iTunes and subscribe to Design in Mind. Rate the show and tell us what you think. Thanks so much for listening.