Gaetano Pesce

Geatano Pesce sits in his New York apartment, looking out the window as a police boat escorts a whale back towards the ocean. Water, he claims, is not just inspiring “every day,” but also “every hour.” Agnostic to material, he finds ways to make the things he envisions and gives us the chance to delight in his world. Pesce insists that the best designers remain childlike because children never stop believing impossible things can be done, and goes on to declare that “the time of men is over,” arguing that the future of society and design is feminine. He seems completely drawn to anything unstable, alive, and impossible to fully control. Once you get past the eccentricity and optimism, Pesce proves himself to be a designer deeply resistant to rigidity, convinced that creativity only survives when people remain open to change, contradiction, and the possibility of becoming someone new.

TRANSCRIPT:

Gaetano Pesce:
I am satisfied when there is a certain complexity, not difficulties.


Tania Ketenjian:
That's Gaetano Pesce, and this is Design in Mind, a podcast series from Architektura. Architecture has long been a hub for international designers and brands in America for over 3 decades. My name is Tanika Tendjian, and Design in Mind candidly explores the lives and work of some of the most inspiring designers and design thinkers from around the world. Again, Gaetano.


Gaetano Pesce:
Complexity is something that you have when you go in front of a subject that is difficult to express. To look for difficult things is not my job, and I like when there is something new, complex to express, to clarify, to transmit, to communicate. That makes me happy, yes.


Tania Ketenjian:
Gaetano Pesce is one of the most important designers of the 20th and 21st century. His designs are unparalleled in exploration of color, material, and form. His mind is innovative and iconoclastic, and his work falls into a multitude of categories: architecture, urban planning, industrial design, furniture design, and art. Stepping into a stimulating studio on Broadway in New York, one is struck by the vibrancy of color, the variety of shape, the prototypes that represent a relentless curiosity and bravery in thought and in process. Gaetano came on the scene early on in his career when the beloved and well-regarded Cassina saw that there was a great talent in the young Pesce and gave him the freedom, financially and otherwise, to create work that would soon create waves in the furniture and design world. Gaetano has since gone on to be part of countless group shows and solo shows around the globe, collected in the world's best museums, and has been a professor for nearly 30 years. His work is unmistakable because of how truly innovative it is, and he, as a person, is such a delight—true to himself, full of life, and eternally curious. We spoke with Gaetano in his studio in New York. This is part two of a two-part interview. Stay tuned.


Gaetano Pesce:
I have only what I need because I consider, in my place where I live, I consider the most valuable thing is the space. And so the space is free for me to move around easily. There are not a lot of objects. And always I was living in the contact, in places in contact with the water, visibly. First of all, there is energy from the water coming. Second, the movement, constantly movement, give you the idea that static is not good. You have to move. And so that helped me a lot. When I wake up in the morning, all my windows are on east side and the sun comes in when it's a sunny day with the reflection on the water of the river. It's fantastic and helps me to give me a very positive mood. And when I work there, because in the morning I work there, That helped me a lot.


Tania Ketenjian:
My studio in San Francisco is on the water, right on the water. And every day the water is different. I love that.


Gaetano Pesce:
Not every day. Also every hour is always the movement—


Tania Ketenjian:
The light, the sometimes there are creatures that come. Yes. The boats, the sounds. It's, it's so inspiring.


Gaetano Pesce:
I hear a very strong sound from police boat. So I look and there is a huge whale in front of my window.


Tania Ketenjian:
That's right! I heard about that whale. I mean, unbelievable.


Gaetano Pesce:
It was very nice to see the police boat just pushing the whale, taking the direction of the sea. And they did it. But to to see from the window and you see a whale. It was quite extraordinary. Surprise, no, surprise is very important. No, you have a routine and the surprise break the routine and keep your attention to be new again, which I think is the magic of New York.


Tania Ketenjian:
Which I think is the magic of New York.


Gaetano Pesce:
New York is a little bit…


Tania Ketenjian:
You know, I was… Because we made the interview later, I said, "Oh, well, I could work or I go to the Whitney. I'll go to the Whitney and I'll see some work, be inspired, prepare for the interview, come." And, um, on my way to the train, I walked on 28th Street. I was— because I did an interview this morning. And the block that I was walking on was all these plant stores and flowers. So you could go inside and all of a sudden it smells like California and so fresh. And I said, this is New York, you know, you don't expect this. You walk, you find something magic.


Gaetano Pesce:
New York has an important quality, very important quality. It's a city based on difference. There are a lot of minorities who had the possibility to keep their identity. And the contrast between one identity and another creates energy. And this is what I enjoyed in New York better than other cities. If I talk about Paris, someone different coming and living in Paris in a very short time is obliged to change this way to be. In New York, this is not like this. New York, each person can keep their tradition, their identity, and it's very important. It's a unique city for the tourism.


Tania Ketenjian:
So Leo Castelli, um, he, when he came across your work, he said he wanted you to work with him, but he said you'd have to do the same thing.


Gaetano Pesce:
You saw that the story is this. When I did the show, very important in the, at the MoMA. The Italy title was Italy: New Domestic Landscape. Castelli came to the opening and he saw my work and he asked to see me. I went to see his gallery and he said, look, where is your place where I can see? At that time, it was June, I remember. And I said, I am going to Venice where I have a little space where you can see my work. He gave me an appointment like in July, I don't know what day, at 5 o'clock. I wait, he said, I wait for you in a cafe in Piazza San Marco, San Marco Square, 5 o'clock. Me, the time goes by, and me, I arrive a little late because I was unsure that if he was there. In reality, he was there waiting. So we went to this space, we walk in Venice together, and when he saw my work, he said, look, you know, I would like to tell you what a gallery's work does. The gallery's work makes a person's work known, and when it's known, he can sell. But if you tell me that you can keep this as a production every, every, for the future, every day, etc., then we can work together. But if you change, I cannot work for you, because if you change that means that I have to repeat the work I do about you, making you known, etc. And so me, I said, look, I cannot repeat, I cannot keep, I cannot assure you that I am still the same, always the same. And he said, okay, I respect your position.


Tania Ketenjian:
But you remained friends. And then he was on a private airplane with you.


Gaetano Pesce:
Yes. When we were going to Richmond, he was always remembering and questioning what you are doing now.


Tania Ketenjian:
Yeah, I'm sure. Because he missed— I mean, it's, it's, uh, it allowed him to question, to say to himself what could have been, you know.


Gaetano Pesce:
Yes. But I, until today, I understand why he was saying that, because most of the galleries, they invest time and money to make someone known, and this work, if it's changing all the time, is a problem. Days ago, I was making new jewelry. It was Labor Day. I was there making jewelry.


Tania Ketenjian:
So what happens? I mean, I never like this question of process, but no, well, so how did that— how did it come about? You were— you know, it's interesting to hear these stories because here you're walking and you see the, the material. So let's say for jewelry, that day you woke up Labor Day weekend and an idea came to you and you went into the studio and said, let me experiment.


Gaetano Pesce:
Yes. The night before, I was thinking about making a new kind of bracelet. And so I called a collaborator to see if he was allowed to help me because I need someone's help when I do manipulation of material. They have a time, I have to do things very fast and I need someone helping me. And that was possible, so I went and I did and it came out. Something interesting.


Tania Ketenjian:
Did it?


Gaetano Pesce:
Yes.


Tania Ketenjian:
So it's exciting.


Gaetano Pesce:
Exciting, yes, because it's exciting in the sense that it's good to see that until today I have new ideas and the result is interesting. So…


Tania Ketenjian:
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, um, it's not something I— it's, it's not something you can generate or control. It's something that you guys have to be open to and allow for, I guess.


Gaetano Pesce:
Not only, but me, I want surprises from the material. So I use material that are liquid, like our time, and the material, when they liquid and then it become solid, but in the between the liquid and the solid, there are other moments. The material does incredible things. That me, I am not able to think, and I am observing certain situations that are fantastic. If I impose my will 100% to the material, I do objects that are not so interesting. But allowing the material to be free, I could be more creative. Yes.


Tania Ketenjian:
It's like, I mean, in a much more simplistic way. It's like watercolors.


Gaetano Pesce:
Watercolor, when you do with the water, there are certain moments that when the water dries, there are certain solutions of color that are fantastic.


Tania Ketenjian:
I mean, it's like giving yourself to what the material— it's having a dance with the material in a way.


Gaetano Pesce:
Absolutely. The liquid— look, life starts in something liquid.


Tania Ketenjian:
Yeah, I mean, a baby swims in amniotic fluid.


Gaetano Pesce:
And the human being came from water. So in the liquidity, there is a lot to discover, a lot.


Tania Ketenjian:
When you go now to, say, Salone, are there things— do you feel inspired


Gaetano Pesce:
I don't go. I usually—


Tania Ketenjian:
That I didn't expect.


Gaetano Pesce:
Look, the last we did, it was very successful. Do you know what we did?


Tania Ketenjian:
At the last salon? No.


Gaetano Pesce:
We have a picture of the carpet with the women. So I did a carpet in a gallery, a carpet divided in squares of this big. Each square was a portrait of a woman. The day of the opening, the people were invited to buy one portrait for $1,000. The portrait was sold in 3 hours. And the money went to an organization in Italy who help women with problem. This is one thing I made. The second thing I made was in front of the number one museum on the street.


Tania Ketenjian:
When was this? What year was this?


Gaetano Pesce:
Last year. This was, uh, what, you know, this year. And the second thing was in front of a very important museum, Brera, very important museum in Milan. We put a chair out of scale called Portrait Chair. It was like, I don't know, 4 meters high, a gigantic chair. And it was also very successful. And then that chair went to Basel. Yeah. And we sold the chair. So enjoy it. I imagine people, someone enjoyed the chair.


Tania Ketenjian:
And also, I mean, what I think is great about that story is that you have a piece at Salone, which is furniture and design, and then that same piece goes to Art Basel, which is, you know, one of the biggest art fairs. Yes. So really, they're just— you're in all those, all those worlds.


Gaetano Pesce:
Also, I have a gallery who help me in this kind of thing. They go, they represent me, so it's okay.


Tania Ketenjian:
So since you don't necessarily— I was going to say mix with the proletariat, but I don't mean that. Since you don't necessarily, um, you know, spend time with new designers and seeing what they're doing, um, If you were to think of what we need now, and we're in a very particular time, um…


Gaetano Pesce:
We need a design. If we talk about design, we need something more human. The production of something they call— How they call the very banal design today? Minimal design. Look at it. If I see what they do, it's not communicative, it's not happy, it's not. So design today is much more complex of what they can make us, or they want us think. It's not true. Design is a very complex art who can express very complex subject. And for what I know, I don't know until today, nobody is doing that experience, but they will because that is this story. There are no other ways that design that. Interesting is a company like IKEA. IKEA. I don't know them. They asked me to meet me. Maybe the director, maybe they know that they can receive something for what they do.


Tania Ketenjian:
Why do you love women so much?


Gaetano Pesce:
Look, I think the reason I am really convinced that the time of men is over. Not because they are going to disappear, but they need to change. The arrogance, the rigidity, the conservativism, etc. Also where they are open-minded, I found them very boring, honestly. Most of my friends are female. I don't— so starting from that, I discovered— so look, Lula, president of Brazil, is a disaster. Abe, president in Japan, was a disaster. In Italy, we had a lot of disaster. Italy is a fantastic country destroyed by politicians, men. In France, we had a guy who was going with a bike to meet the lover. No. Now in England, fortunately, they have a woman.


Tania Ketenjian:
Well here it's a disaster.


Gaetano Pesce:
Yeah, yeah, I don't know what is going to happen in America, honestly. So also observing that, then I saw the contact with women I had is that show me personality, very committed. Men usually don't care. They do their interest and that's it. And so that made me thinking that the future is feminine. But then I look in the reality and I see women are mistreated, uh, with violence against them. They impose— certain religions impose to cover their body instead to show their body because sometimes it's good for them to show their qualities, you know, also physical quality. And so all this together said, me, I have to, if I can, on my little side, to help a little bit this cause. Just that.


Tania Ketenjian:
I love that. And do you— it's not like you're going to— I mean, it's— I was going to say, it's not like you're going to retire because it's not like what there's no— it's not working, it's creating, right?


Gaetano Pesce:
Yes. Working for me, when people— when you meet someone, you say, 'How is it going?' And the guy answer, 'You know, difficult. I have to work.' For me, that is not possible. For me, work is a pleasure and I like to do it. Also, if it's a hot day going to the workshop, and take care of new ideas, I do it with pleasure. And work is supposed to be like that for everybody because it's a quality. Work is something that allows us to live first, to survive, to make new experiences, to discover, to meet people. So it's a fantastic something. That is not honored in the way it's supposed to be. This is what I think about work.


Tania Ketenjian:
And when you think about the thing that you're— I wouldn't say most proud of, but the part of yourself that you feel is the most valuable, let's say.


Gaetano Pesce:
I am proud of my curiosity, and also I am proud to discover myself that I don't think if I am tired. When I have something to do, I do without thinking I am tired or not. Lately, I must say, my physique creates some question to me. But until a few months ago, I was never thinking, I am tired, I cannot do this, I cannot do that. Freud investigated a quality of the human being that is the way you are when you are a child. And in that moment, you are a total free individual. Then, in time, The education starts to change your way to be, and you abandon what you was to become the person that is ready to enter in the rules of the society. What I understood with my experience is that the people who do something, usually they are still child, because they never think this is not possible. For them, everything is possible. And when you think in that way, you do things that nobody else does. And that is the best. I believe that happened to me in a certain way.


Tania Ketenjian:
Perfect.


Gaetano Pesce:
Thank you. It was fantastic.


Tania Ketenjian:
That was Gaetano Pesce, one of the most important designers of the 20th and 21st century, and we spoke with him in his studio in New York. This is part two of a two-part interview. Design in Mind is a podcast series from Architektura. Based in San Francisco, Architektura curates the best design from around the world and makes it accessible through its retail spaces, live events, and this podcast. Design in Mind is Architektura's way of honoring the life and work of some of the best designers today and celebrating the magic and beauty of design and design thinking. Design in Mind is produced for Architektura by Sound Made Public. I'm your host, Tania Ketenjian. To hear more, please visit arcsf.com or go to iTunes and subscribe to Design in Mind. Rate the show, tell us what you think. Thanks so much.